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Age of Sigmar is proving to be surpassingly deep and interesting coming back at Warhammer with a whole rebooting of balancing the armies and opening up all new tactics. But the area that is mostly escaping us is the summoning and reinforcements rules.
So, I want to isolate the summoning and reinforcements in Age of Sigmar issues. What are you finding is balanced, what seems broken. Let's discuss using these rules, countering them, pros and cons etc. What works and what doesn't in your opinions.
Zombie summoning is very overpowered. With a great chance to summon twenty (especially with corpse cart and mortis engine) and the ability to join them together summoning lots of zombies gets pretty stupid pretty fast. Also summoning guys that can summon also can get out of control fast. Citation: pink horrors in 40K. However, summoning normal units of skeletons or dire wolves does not seem overwhelming especially considering they give up victory points (read model count things). Summoning more powerful stuff can get really bad for your opponent really fast (read blood knights). Haven't played with the reinforcement rules but they seem to be a little much especially in a game about total annihilation.
I found the more units initially in play, the less of a balance issue things like summoning are. Because in much larger games individual units start to matter less (which is one of the main reasons apocalypse in 40k could work without point values per side. Because the game was designed to be so large scale that even playing at a 1-3k disadvantage wasn't that big of a deal) Not only that but we replace our support magic with summoning if we over-summon. Because the spells all maintain low unit sizes a clever opponent can wipe out a number of the summoned units before they can attack or their attack power will be hampered due to their small size, making them easier to balance. Of course as I mentioned in small games these are massively unbalanced since they will tip the scales too far, but in truth it seems like every balance issue I encounter in AoS can be solves by just playing a bigger games or don't use it below xx warscrolls. Ultimately undead are still quite fragile with usually not better than a6+ save against anything with a rend value. Our durability is designed around getting back up, not our saves or wound characteristics so if opponents can eliminate our wizards then focus fire so our banners have no time to activate our army can crumble very rapidly, even without accounting for battleshock. Of course I can only compare our army to what I've seen in others but when elves get 5+ save with re-rolls of 1-2 in many circumstances on their basic guys and we get a 5+ on skeles against - rend but no save against any rend and zombies have no save. Orc Big Bosses, elf characters, etc tend to have a 4+ re-rollable save where our vamps have just a 4+ but can get a wound back, etc. This says to me that our army is designed around using summoning to replace our lesser durability. Of course this is just what I've seen, having not examined anything other than the death section and what my friends have fought me with I can't say for sure but this seems like a trend between all of their armies. (P.s. sorry for no paragraphs, I'm on my phone so hard to judge when a section is a bit meaty)
Zombie summoning is very overpowered. With a great chance to summon twenty (especially with corpse cart and mortis engine) and the ability to join them together summoning lots of zombies gets pretty stupid pretty fast. Also summoning guys that can summon also can get out of control fast. Citation: pink horrors in 40K. However, summoning normal units of skeletons or dire wolves does not seem overwhelming especially considering they give up victory points (read model count things). Summoning more powerful stuff can get really bad for your opponent really fast (read blood knights). Haven't played with the reinforcement rules but they seem to be a little much especially in a game about total annihilation.
Except zombies are very soft. No save means they can't hold up to anything. They die easily and thus crumble quickly.
Wizards are limited to the number of spells they can cast, if you spend your summoning efforts on hard to cast models (i.e. ones that need 10+) you will waste your spells. Often, its better to cast a spell like mystic shield instead, so a unit holds out better.
The other part of summoning that self balances, is summoned units count against you for victory but not for you. So anything summoned killed counts toward the percentage of your starting wounds destroyed.
Blood Knights can't even be summoned. So, not sure what you're talking about there. Let's keep this constructive please.
I found the more units initially in play, the less of a balance issue things like summoning are. Because in much larger games individual units start to matter less (which is one of the main reasons apocalypse in 40k could work without point values per side. Because the game was designed to be so large scale that even playing at a 1-3k disadvantage wasn't that big of a deal) Not only that but we replace our support magic with summoning if we over-summon. Because the spells all maintain low unit sizes a clever opponent can wipe out a number of the summoned units before they can attack or their attack power will be hampered due to their small size, making them easier to balance. Of course as I mentioned in small games these are massively unbalanced since they will tip the scales too far, but in truth it seems like every balance issue I encounter in AoS can be solves by just playing a bigger games or don't use it below xx warscrolls. Ultimately undead are still quite fragile with usually not better than a6+ save against anything with a rend value. Our durability is designed around getting back up, not our saves or wound characteristics so if opponents can eliminate our wizards then focus fire so our banners have no time to activate our army can crumble very rapidly, even without accounting for battleshock. Of course I can only compare our army to what I've seen in others but when elves get 5+ save with re-rolls of 1-2 in many circumstances on their basic guys and we get a 5+ on skeles against - rend but no save against any rend and zombies have no save. Orc Big Bosses, elf characters, etc tend to have a 4+ re-rollable save where our vamps have just a 4+ but can get a wound back, etc. This says to me that our army is designed around using summoning to replace our lesser durability. Of course this is just what I've seen, having not examined anything other than the death section and what my friends have fought me with I can't say for sure but this seems like a trend between all of their armies. (P.s. sorry for no paragraphs, I'm on my phone so hard to judge when a section is a bit meaty)
No problem. Yeah, It does seem like undead are fragile and require support through summoning, banners and characters. Makes sense. This is one of the reasons why summoning seems really self balancing for undead at least.
I like that many different wizards have access to summoning now. Creates interesting strategies. I'm unsure on how balanced being able to keep summoning scary things is. Case in point, the Slann can cast three spells in his hero phase. Let us say he casts Summon Warlord (summoning Kroq-gar) three times and on a low average gets it through every third time. This means that he will putting out Carnosaurs faster than anybody can kill them. Haven't tried this tactic yet, but it seems pretty strong.
I like that many different wizards have access to summoning now. Creates interesting strategies. I'm unsure on how balanced being able to keep summoning scary things is. Case in point, the Slann can cast three spells in his hero phase. Let us say he casts Summon Warlord (summoning Kroq-gar) three times and on a low average gets it through every third time. This means that he will putting out Carnosaurs faster than anybody can kill them. Haven't tried this tactic yet, but it seems pretty strong.
Except in rule pamphlet page 4 3rd and 4th lines under casting spells it states a wizard can only attempt to cast each spell once per turn
The amount of casting bonuses tends to get silly, when no other system of balance is in place.
Having a bonus with Morghasts, a Corpse Cart and a Mortis Engine seem sufficient and costly enough to provide the limit of "balanced" summoning, however adding Scenery special rules just makes it ridiculous.
Although, Wizards are quite limited to the amount of spells they can cast (non-named Heroes at least) and the summoned units are somewhat weak, and not all units are elite units as well (plus with this system of AoS, you need to own those minis, so no proxying here, not even in casual games).
As your opponents close in, there is less and less room to summon stuff, and eventually you could get surrounded, unable to summon anything, and that can be done by turn 2, with a decen army composition and stolen turn initiative.
@Crystal True indeed, but let us say that he casts Summon Warlord, Summon Carnosaur and Summon Engine of the Gods. Almost the same effect.
The other major consideration, is if you are summoning units that get blasted off the table, unless you win via major victory, you can easily end up with over 100% of your starting force killed, preventing you from attaining a minor victory, so summoning really is a gamble, you either summon very conservatively, allowing you the option to gain a minor victory, or you go balls to the wall knowign your only hope is via a major victory.
I personally haven't tried summoning yet, since I am trying to get a feel for what the units can do first, because if I am going to summon it, the models being brought in need to offset the penalty to a minor victory they impose if they die, so that is a definite consideration to take into account.
One thing of note, Skeleton horse archers CAN move the turn they are summoned, they simply elect to shoot at something in the movement phase, and then in the shooting phase can move, giving you a very useful piece of chaff, placed anywhere in 18inches and then can run wherever they need to be.
Last edited: Jul 15, 2015@Crystal True indeed, but let us say that he casts Summon Warlord, Summon Carnosaur and Summon Engine of the Gods. Almost the same effect.
That's true, I only took a brief glance at lizardmen to be honest. My point wasn't so much about the summoning rate for slann, it was more to point out that most times I see this topic people tend to forget the "one attempt per turn" restriction so while your point is very valid and I will take a look at the pdf to understand its difficulty better, it was more to make anyone reading aware of that rule. Sorry I wasn't really clear ^^"
The other major consideration, is if you are summoning units that get blasted off the table, unless you win via major victory, you can easily end up with over 100% of your starting force killed, preventing you from attaining a minor victory, so summoning really is a gamble, you either summon very conservatively, allowing you the option to gain a minor victory, or you go balls to the wall knowing your only hope is via a major victory.
At the same time, though, you can prevent your opponent from having much hope of achieving a major victory themselves, and you can completely subvert the sudden death victory game conditions by starting outnumbered, but outnumbering your opponent by the end of the first turn.
In my handful of games so far, I haven't played against anyone else pushing summoning, so I haven't had the experience of facing it down.
That said, I have played my own games without summoning, with some summoning, and with heavy summoning.
The 'some summoning' games were with one or two casters, no special characters - so if you try a summon you aren't casting anything else with that wizard - and with few casting bonuses - just a corpse cart in one, and just a randomly rolled terrain effect in the other, and thee seemed to work pretty ok for the most part, not too much different from non-summoning games (no wizards - a skeleton force led by Krell and a wight king BSB), or wizards that just don't summon (a ghoul list led by a ghoul king who spent his casts on his signature spell or armor buffing himself).
The heavy summoning games included either multi-cast special characters (Arkhan and Kemmler in particular, I haven't broken out Nagash yet) or 3+ casters and multiple stacking casting bonuses (Arkhan + morghasts; terrain + corpse cart + summoned morghasts), and those games all got out of hand quickly. Things that seemed like aggrevating factors:
* Multiple summoning attempts in the same round. Adding a unit every other turn is not the hugest deal. Adding two or more units every turn is. Likewise, some of the buffs are big deals (vanhels from our necros in particular). When summoning comes instead of buffing a key unit, that's a major trade off, but when you can do both? not so much.
* Casting bonuses making summoning too easy. Once success is automatic for regular units and monsters or double sized summons start appearing on average or even sub average rolls, things get out of hand quickly. Without +2 or more to cast, trying to summon a terrorgheist feels like a hail mary play that deserves to swing the game if you pull it off, because trying for it is far more likely to result in you simply wasting your wizard for a turn, and again, with spells like vanhels that you could have more easily cast instead, is no small cost.
* It is too easy to avoid dispelling altogether when summoning. Most spells, you need to be in range of enemy units, or of friendly units about to engage enemy units, in order to be relevant, bringing you into range for dispelling. Likewise, most non-summoning spells have line of sight requirements likely to bring you into line of sight of the enemy. Summoning breaks both of these, and summoning wizards can have huge impacts on the game from the back of their deployment zone and / or behind line of sight blocking terrain. Granted, if you're stacking huge casting bonuses dispel attempts aren't likely to be successful anyway, but still, it's a check on casting that summoning bypasses in a way that maybe it shouldn't.
* Summoned units that act on the turn they are summoned give opponents no way to respond, and this can result in games that are more frustrating than fun, and feel non-interactive. Harbingers are very likely to succeed on charges from 9.1 inches away, archers and terrorgheists that can fire the moment they are summoned can also just feel unfair. All the more so for summoned casters who can in turn summon more of themselves in the same hero phase, from what I've heard. For the record, this is also an issue for 'deep striking' sigmarites and ambushing units, so it isn't a problem exclusive to summoning.
* Victory conditions. As mentioned, summoning can interact poorly with sudden death, and it throws off the regular victory conditions as well, skewing the odds of total victory towards the summoner and minor victory towards their opponent.
There are some house rules I've been considering proposing:
- limits on number of summoned units a caster can control at a time, maybe restrict it to the number of spells they can cast in a single round. Once a necromancer has summoned a unit, or arkhan two, or Nagash eight, they can summon no further units until one of the units already summoned has been destroyed. If for some reason the number of spells a character can cast is reduced (relevant for nagash), then either more units must be destroyed before they can summon again or, alternatively, the summoner chooses units already in play to be destroyed until the summoned unit count is back down to the amount the character can now control (this in particular would have some interesting narrative / scenario type implications for games played against Nagash - who builds up an army quickly but as you damage him that army crumbles - but as I haven't actually played Nagash personally this is a pretty idle suggestion without any experience behind it).
- Similarly, if a summoner is destroyed, any units they've summoned are either destroyed, or become much easier to destroy (reduced to bravery zero and have to test bravery every round regardless of casualties, in emulation of our old crumbling rules, perhaps). This takes some of the skew off the major victory thing, as the opposition can assassinate the casters to get rid of excess summoned units, keeping major victory as a possibility. I like crumbling in particular as it has a cool narrative feel to it that seems fitting with the tone of Age of Sigmar.
- To attempt to unbind a spell, a wizard must be within range and line of sight of either the caster OR the effect (ie, the unit targeted, or the first model to be summoned, which would be placed as a marker before resolving unbinding attempts, and simply removed if the unbinding attempt is successful. Alternatively, range and line of sight are simply not required when attempting to unbind summoning spells. This, however, proves problematic when casters with bonuses to unbinding take the field, which could then hard counter any summoning attempted by caster that aren't cheezing out with stacking casting bonuses.
- Speaking of, maybe put a limit on stacking casting bonuses. Like, only from two sources for instance. Ie, if arkhan is next to some morghasts then he can stack their bonus with his staff, but if he's next to a corpse cart as well then he doesn't get that bonus on top of the two he already has. Or maybe limit it to a single bonus with no stacking at all, but while that might be more 'balanced', it seems counter to the narrative to prevent, say, Nagash from benefitting from morghasts, for instance. Or maybe simply cap total casting bonuses at +2, unless a single bonus is greater? Even that seems like a bit much when most summoning spells resolve on a 5 and thus could be nearly auto-cast at that value, plus again it seems counter-narrative to block Nagash from benefiting from morghasts.
- Perhaps outright bonuses to casting are a bit much to be thrown out willy-nilly. Maybe instead some bonuses should be 're-roll ones' or 'increased range' or 'd6 extra wounds worth of models' or the like. Maybe some of the current casting bonuses should do something else entirely - maybe morghasts could provide a bonus to bravery checks (analogous to their old crumble reduction), bolstering existing units instead of making it easier to bring new ones to the field; or the corpse cart's lodestone could add d6 extra zombies to any new unit of zombies summoned in its range instead of making all spells easier to summon, etc.
- Maybe re-institute auto-failure for casting rolls of 2 or 3, so at the very least these spells are never automatically successful, and/or an auto-pass for unbinding on double sixes. On that subject, instituting a 'one always fails' policy on to-hit, to-wound, and saves might also be a good call, but that's off topic.
- Maybe restrict summoned units from acting at all the turn their summoned, giving opponents the opportunity (or at least the chance of an opportunity, dependent on initiative roles) to respond in some way to the appearance of new units before they start inflicting damage. A terrorgheist appearing on the table is a momentum shift enough, a terrorgheist appearing and removing one of the enemy's key heroes at the same time before they can react in any way is maybe too much. Similar restrictions might be worth considering for other 'reserve' units. Or maybe not.